Joey, 33 years old:
I've met many paedophiles in various countries. I was born in America and
have traveled all over the world in an attempt to find a place where I can live
in harmony with my desires.
Paedophiles are a very isolated group. Most of them don't dare to say anything or to talk to anyone. But I do. I'm very open, sometimes at my own expense and risk to my safety. It can also work in the opposite way. A police officer once told me, "I've never talked before with one of you people who was as open as you." Perhaps this was also the reason why my sentence was so light.
Could you tell me about this case?
In Holland I had a neighbour who was a prostitute. She lived with a pimp. They
had three children. The older two, of eleven and eight, were his. The third, a
son of two, was theirs.
The parents were very primitive, and the children lacked any sort of contact with them - body contact, emotional contact. They just existed.
How did you come into contact with them?
On the street. The children invited me to come up and visit their parents. And
so we became friends. The mother liked to be free of the children when she
worked and so I was allowed to look after them.
Eight to ten months went by that way without any trouble. The oldest boy was completely crazy about sex. The eight-year old heard from his older brother that we were having sex with each other, so he wanted to take part too.
At that time I also had to baby-sit in the weekends. The father was in prison sitting out a two-month sentence. The mother went there every week to visit him.
It was during this time, when the father was away, that the mother tried to make me go to bed with her. I refused and she got angry with me. She knew that I was having sexual contacts with her children. She said, "You let my children see you and play with you and go to bed with you, but you won't let me."
I was arrested two or three days after the father returned from prison. Because of the youngest boy. I hadn't really done much, but I had sucked him because he liked it. He was only two and was just starting to talk. One day while his mother was giving him a bath, the child said, "Suck it, Mom. Suck it." I was arrested and thrown in gaol for three days of questioning. I was very open. I said, "Yes, I'm a paedophile." I spoke about my feelings for the children, explained what had happened, and how and why.
At first they were rough and mean towards me, but later they became rather pleasant. My residence permit wasn't taken away, but my attorney said to me, "I advise you to leave the country before the trial. I believe you will come off badly this time." It was the second time I had been caught in Holland.
So I fled to Denmark. I was sentenced in absentia and got a very mild punishment - two weeks imprisonment on probation and a fine of 1000 guilders. I don't have that much money; if I did I'd like to move back to Holland.
Why do you think your sentence was so light?
First of all, because the mother was a prostitute. The judge could see that the
child was miserable at home. Secondly, because the child and I had done
practically nothing. There was no money involved, as in many of such cases. No
question of prostitution, nor of using the child for porno pictures.
I was sent to a psychiatrist. He was a very fine fellow. He wrote a nice letter, an attestation, in which he said, among other things, that paedophiles not uncommonly have a positive influence on children, especially where the children lack affection and attention at home.
How did they treat the children during the police examination?
I don't know, but I got a copy of the police report of the examination. I couldn't recognise anything that was written there. I got the impression that the police had put words into the children's mouths based upon their own impressions of what had happened.
Have you seen the children since?
I met the eldest in the street once. He was very friendly and sweet towards me.
The police had also told me that he wanted to come and see me right away if he
could. He really was in love with me. It was very nice to hear the police saying
I also wanted to be with him, but his parents and the system blocked the way. I think that's a pity. I think I have got something to offer him. It's not only a question of sucking cock. It often happens when I'm in contact with a child that I'm told things even the parents know nothing about - things having to do with their views on life, their innermost thoughts, their problems.
What kind of problems?
For example, there were two children whose father fucked them in the arse. It
hurt. They were afraid to tell, because they were afraid of losing their father.
Because they liked him.
They could talk it over it with me. If they discussed it with a teacher at school or one of their friends, the father would surely have problems. He was one of those very isolated paedophiles. He wouldn't even admit to himself that he was a paedophile.
The biggest problem for paedophiles is and always will be that they must keep it a secret, that they can't discuss it with anybody without all hell breaking loose.
What influence does this secrecy and fear have on the children?
I think this makes them doubt whether what they are doing is all right, because nobody else will support them in this view. I'm the only one. I tell them that it's all right, that it's very good. It's your body, you can enjoy it.
What will happen if you're sent to prison?
It wouldn't change me, if that is what you mean. If I have to go to prison, it
will mean that I'll be in contact with a bad group of men whose ideals are quite
different from mine. Murderers and such. I've not killed anyone. The only illegal thing I've ever done is to
touch a few children where you're not allowed to touch them.
I wonder if this isn't all bound up with parents' frustrations. Maybe parents feel tempted to crawl into bed with their children. Not consciously, of course; they'd never admit that. They'd knock me down if I'd say such a thing. But I believe it is true. Anyway in many cases.
Tell me about some of the children you've known.
One thing they generally have in common is that most of them don't have it so
good at home. They're children who are neglected at home. Children like to meet
someone who is honest. They crave justice. Adults have learned life's game of
facades and lies. Children are more down to earth. They don't have a guilty
conscience when they tell the truth. With children I know where I stand.
I feel I have a sense of responsibility because I have a big influence on children. That's why people hate me. They're afraid I have more influence on children than the parents have themselves. I teach children to be individualists, and that's not appreciated.
What about the sexuality of very young children?
There is something pure and direct about them. They're still unspoiled. They
have a lot of sensations, and they have a great need for contact.
I think it is wrong to figuratively cut little children up into pieces by making them believe some parts of the body are healthy and good, while others, those parts normally covered by underclothes, are bad and dirty. When we divide up the bodies of children this way we create problems.
Adults won't admit it, but I'm firmly convinced that even very young children have sexual feelings, even if they're not as developed as an adult's, but those feelings are very strong nevertheless. And they like to share them.
So, I've learned how to approach them. I don't start by throwing them onto my bed or by asking if I can suck them. I'm nice to them, fondle them a little, kiss them, talk with them. I have no expectations and make no demands. If something is going to happen the initiative should be theirs. In regards to me, they can scold me or be mad at me, just as they like. I prefer their being honest with me and saying what they mean. And so I make a different impression on them than other adults do. Children have their own world, a world about which most adults know nothing. Occasionally an adult comes along who is very open and will accept children for what they are. I think I see them as they really are.
But it's not just sex I'm looking for. That's a part of it, just as it is for everybody. Sex is a part of our lives. It is also a part of the life of a two-year-old or an eleven-year-old child.
If they are permitted...
They do it anyway, whether it is allowed or not. When they can't do it openly
they masturbate secretly, and perhaps they grow up and become just as
short-sighted and inhibited as their parents were.
My own mother is one of those. Sex takes place in the dark, under bedclothes. You must turn off the light and you must not talk about it.
You were not allowed to masturbate?
I masturbated often, and got a stiff cock and that was fine. But my mother
wouldn't tolerate it if I touched myself there. I remember once when I was four
or five. I was playing with my prick in my mother's bedroom. She cried,
"You mustn't do that!" She told my older brother to go and find the
big kitchen knife. She threatened to cut my prick off. I really thought she was
going to do it. I was very frightened.
Maybe this is one of the reasons why I became a paedophile. I'm not attracted to women. I'm afraid of them. Psychiatrists say so. Perhaps they're right. But they can't convert me.
Did you go to a psychiatrist yourself or were you sent to one?
Once I went myself. I had joined a religious group and so I came into conflict
with myself because I was told that what I was doing was wrong. I paid this
psychiatrist $38 an hour for listening to me. I went to see him for two months.
He got rich. I got poor. Finally he said, "You don't need to come anymore.
I can't do anything for you. You should just relax and have a good time."
I got to know some boys and made out with them and had a fine time for several years, until I was arrested. Then I had to go to a psychiatrist again. This time I was forced to. And he was an idiot!
He tried to treat you?
Treat me? He experimented on me! He had a phallometer, a glass cylinder that he
put over my prick. With various instruments he could measure the blood pressure
in my cock. He showed me pictures of naked people of different ages to see if
his instruments indicated a reaction.
I told him that I preferred children four to six years old, or in any case before they reached puberty. After a month of testing and experimenting he told me that I preferred children four to six years old, or in any case before they reached puberty. How clever he was!
He gave me some medicine to lower my sex drive. He said that I should go twice a year to a hospital for a liver puncture to determine whether it had been damaged by the medicine. I never took any of the medicine. It was a female sex hormone. Progesterone, its name was. Why should I take such stuff? Because other people are frustrated?
I knew someone who took it. He had a weak personality. His sex drive was weakened, but it's difficult to say whether by the medicine or by his fear of being caught again.
You got off rather easy every time you were caught?
I've been lucky. It is as if I've been protected. This sounds religious, but I have been protected by good people. I follow my natural impulses, at any expense, and because of this I sometimes take great risks.
Don't you think you exaggerate the risk?
Perhaps. I am afraid of electronic data processing and supervision, and of being
a victim of experiments. Because I'm one of those whom men of science can't
influence or change. On the one hand they're astonished. On the other they're
angry because I have my own free will and they don't like that.
If the world turns fascist again, as it did during World War II, they will say to the men of science, "Yes, go ahead and do what you like to him. He's worthless." Paedophiles are easy victims. Who would defend a paedophile?
Do the children see that you are afraid?
I don't think so, for I'm foolhardy. For example, I enjoy the moment when I'm in
bed with a child and then I'm indifferent to what might happen afterwards. You
should be careful not to infect children with your own paranoia. That's why I
never say to them that they mustn't tell anyone what we're doing together. I
just tell them that it's something private. "Your father and mother don't
talk to you about their sex life, why should you talk about yours to them?"
I also tell them that they should tell the truth if they're ever questioned.
I don't think children can understand why their parents are so afraid of these things. For example, once a five-year-old boy said to me, "I think it's nice to do this. I would like to do this with my mother too, but she doesn't want to. Why doesn't she want to?"
I didn't know what to say to him. His mother was very jealous of me because I had this special contact with her child which she hadn't been able to establish herself.
Did you discuss it with her?
I discussed her jealousy with her, but I didn't discuss the sex. I thought she
should bring the subject up if she wanted to. She understood quite well that I
was having a sexual relationship with her son. He said to her: "You know,
Mom, Joey likes to suck my peepee." She was surprised and asked him,
"And you like it when he does this to you?" He only grinned and said,
"Yes, I like it." She never said anything to me at all, although I
lived with them for a year and a half.
I think she was afraid. She discussed it with other people, but never with me. This was irritating. I didn't dare broach the subject because I didn't think she was ready to accept such an approach.
Many of the parents I've known have reacted in the same way. They know very well what is going on, but they don't want to discuss it. If they discussed it, it would be as if they admitted that they knew about it. And if it were to become a police case later they wouldn't be able to deny having had any knowledge of it. Many parents are very reserved because they don't want to put their security at risk, or their social appearance.
Have there never been any parents with whom you could discuss it?
There was one mother, in this country. Her son was allowed to sleep with me, and sometimes stay with me. But then he was sent to a home for children because his parents didn't take good enough care of him. When he came to say goodbye to me he said, "I can't sleep with you any more, but my teddy bear would very much like to sleep with you." And so he gave me his dearest teddy. "His name is Thomas, like me," he said. I kept the bear with me for many years and grew very attached to it. Last Christmas I gave it to another boy because I didn't have enough money to buy him a Christmas present.
Have you been subjected to economic exploitation by children?
I'm opposed to paying and I'm shocked when I meet children who demand money.
Then I lose all interest in doing anything with them and prefer to go home and
masturbate. I think it is wrong when they are so materialistic.
But I did go with a boy a few times, ages ago. This is not an excuse, but I'd try to avoid it if it happened again. A boy I knew well wanted to get 15 crowns. He knew I was excited; he deliberately turned me on. He made me horny, showing me his prick and his arse. And at the climax he said, "I must have 15 crowns, please." It was difficult to say no. I gave him 15 crowns, but I got no pleasure from it. And I don't believe that I will ever do it again.
I also knew one boy in the States who wanted money. He had run away from home and had no money and no place to stay. He slept on the street. It was terrible to see. I offered to help him get an honest job making things he could sell in the streets. I thought he shouldn't sell his body. So I told him, "I'd like to go to bed with you, but you won't get any money for it." I bought him something to eat and gave him some money, but without having sex. I think it's wrong if children get the impression that their body is up for sale. Prostitution - it's not for me!
I don't think that any of the children I've met were actually harmed. It is possible that their parents or surroundings did harm them. Perhaps I was indirectly responsible for this, but they were not harmed by the things we did.
How were they harmed?
They needed the emotional contact that we had - what adults would call the
sexual contact. They couldn't see anything wrong in it. And then, when I was
arrested by the police, the children couldn't understand why. They were
troubled. They will, perhaps, later have difficulties in becoming attached again
to another adult - they'll be afraid of the same thing happening again.
It would be better if parents were more honest with themselves. If a paedophile has had contact with their child, it would be best for all parties, including the child, to discuss things with the paedophile instead of going straight to the police. He should then tell them in great detail exactly what had happened. Children are questioned about their private life. This is destructive.
If it's a case of force or rape, that's different. But there should be somebody who can help in these situations too.
A child rapist is probably very isolated and troubled; he acts in conflict with
his own conscience. He has a difficult life. He has nobody to discuss it with or
to identify with. Paedophiles don't find role models in the majority. They have
nobody to compare themselves to or to identify with.
Heterosexuals have role models. When boys are growing up they can compare themselves with their fathers. You miss this if you're growing up as a paedophile. I wasn't even twelve when I began to go to bed with little children. I had no role models at all.
How do you see your future?
I can well imagine fleeing the Western world and going to live in a very
different kind of society.
There are many children in the world in need of affection and support. I won't abuse them. I think I'm a very responsible person.
Here, in the West, we are subjected to the crazy idea that there is something wrong with the sex organs. It would be interesting to see how people think about those things in other parts of the world.
But there are language problems, and problems with getting a job and earning a living. I'm not especially materially minded. I can live quite well in a tent if necessary.
I think I've seen enough of the Western world and its insanity. I think I'm wasting my time and energy here.